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Post by Nyi28nhl on May 14, 2007 19:42:53 GMT -5
After every season of every sport, countless fans argue who deserves the MVP award and why. More often than not, there is no clear right answer.
Lets make it an even harder decision.
If the award ceremony was this weekend, who would win the Most Valuable Player in all of team sports?
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Post by GEO on May 14, 2007 20:36:02 GMT -5
Make sure this debate doesn't turn into "what does the MVP award mean" because we've been there, done that, and BWW probably won it.
I'll stick to your final question, and it's actually a fairly good topic to get a good debate going.
I look at all of the major team sports and think to myself...
Hockey: All about the team. No go. Football: Probably not. Take away Peyton Manning, you have Joseph Addai and Mavin Harrison. Baseball: Possibly. But take away Jeter, you have A-Rod. Basketball: One player can completely win a game.
Basketball it is.
Seeing as how the award would be given out THIS weekend, the award goes to Lebron James. Out of all the teams left in the Playoffs, Lebron is the superstar with the least amount of help around him. If you take him away from the Cavs, there is absolutely no way they make it to the semi-finals. In fact, they'd probably be a lottery pick.
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Post by blindlywewander on May 14, 2007 22:26:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure why I keep putting my time into these debates, but your argument is way off so I had to say something. I agree about all the sports except football. Take away Peyton and the Colts have nothing. They could win games, but never the Super Bowl. Before Peyton came to the Colts, they were a terrible team. He literally changed the franchise when he arrived. This topic is really broad though so it's hard to just argue one guy. I think that rather than Peyton, in football it would be Tom Brady. Take him away, the Patriots are nothing. 3 Super Bowls? Wipe those away. Bill Bellichick goes from average to legendary? Nope. Had it not been for Brady, there's no telling where Bellichick would be coaching right now. Tom Brady is the Patriots. Now you can say that for a lot of teams in a lot of sports. But they all pale in comparison to Brady. LT is the Chargers. Vick is the Falcons. Kobe is the Lakers. Lebron is the Cavs. It's all true. The thing that seperates Brady from those, however, is his amount of success. 3 Championships. What "1 player" team has had that kind of success? The Chargers are a great team and may eventually win a super bowl, but not yet. Falcons? Way off. Kobe? He's been successful, but only with talent (a very large mammoth of a talent known as Shaq) around him. Lebron? Where's his success? Regular season wins and a few playoff wins against a Wizards team without Arenas and a perennial playoff loser New Jersey team? Place that on a scale next to Tom Brady's success. Even this past season, he made it deep into the playoffs with very few players that would even start elsewhere. MVP is Tom Brady. This year, it probably won't be that way because he now has loads of talent around him. But this past season, he was a lone wolf. There was the rookie maroney who proved himself, but I emphasize rookie. Lebron has guys around him who are good, consistent scorers. Yes, he has come in and made a huge impact, but none greater than Tom Brady. He is the most valuable athlete in all of sports.
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Post by GEO on May 14, 2007 22:37:23 GMT -5
You put time in because you're the master. And I appreciate it While I like the fact you tore apart my post, you're off. The question is THIS WEEKEND. Is Tom Brady doing much right now? Nope. But Lebron just won the third gfame for the Cavs.
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Post by Nyi28nhl on May 14, 2007 22:41:32 GMT -5
You put time in because you're the master. And I appreciate it While I like the fact you tore apart my post, you're off. The question is THIS WEEKEND. Is Tom Brady doing much right now? Nope. But Lebron just won the third gfame for the Cavs. To clear up, by this weekend I meant it as in right now if you had to give the MVP award in all of sports who would it go to. BWW had it right. My reason for wording it with This Weekend was so nothing that may or may not happen later in the playoffs is counted.
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Post by blindlywewander on May 14, 2007 22:43:42 GMT -5
This weekend? Then what's the point of the question? This weekend, it's baseball, hockey or basketball. That's not all team sports. I'm pretty sure the question is "the most valuable player in ALL of team sports." Seems to me that the word ALL encompasses, well, ALL team sports. I think he meant if the Award ceremony were this weekend, not if we were discussing events around this weekend. If so, this debate is retarded. It's too early to discuss the baseball MVP. As you said, hockey is all team. It'd be all basketball. If it turns out that's what it is, I guess I'm out. Debating the NBA playoff mvp is a topic for the basketball thread, not trash talk competitions.
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Post by GEO on May 14, 2007 22:46:54 GMT -5
My answer still stands. Before Lebron, the Cavs were nothing.
Don't get me wrong, Tom Brady is amazing, but he didn't win the championship this year and wasn't overly amazing. If you take Brady away, the Pats still have talent. A good defense, a few running backs, and sold "ok" receivers.
In football, once player can't win a game. But in basketball, one player has the ability to take over and get his team the win in EVERY SINGLE GAME.
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Post by blindlywewander on May 14, 2007 23:02:24 GMT -5
Are you kidding me? You're saying the Pats would win without Tom Brady? You're crazy. Tom Brady made the Patriots into a dynasty. He won a strong division with young, inexperienced recievers, and unproven running back. I'm in so much shock you even said that I can't put my thoughts together. Lebron is not the team. He didn't average the most rebounds. He averaged more points, but that's because he's the star. Several other players averaged at or close to 15 points a game. That's average. That means players around him must have scored. And it might be, just maybe, that they did it without King James lifting them up and helping them put the ball in the basket. Lebron is no savior. Not yet at least. He's got a good run going and is changing the franchise, but not yet. Tom Brady changed the Patriots immediately. He took a franchise that was historically awful and transformed them into a dynasty. One player can't win a game, but the leadership and wisdom provided by Tom Brady keeps the Patriots consistently great. Take him away, and I promise they'll fall from grace. Any other player on the Pats that'll do that? Maybe Bruschi? No. Maybe Corey Dillon? No. Maybe Dieon Branch? Nope. Brady STILL wins. That's why he's the best. He can win regardless of talent level. Of course, Lebron can as well, but basketball is a game where a majority of the players has the potential to lead a playoff team. The Wizards beat the Mavs for crying out loud. Stephen Jackson? MVP? Not even close. Billups? Ben Gordon? They're great players that had 1st round success, but are they even considered for MVP? Nope. But Lebron? Why? 'Cause he's glamorous. He's got sprite and Nike and is in the face of everyone. When he wins, people are just forced to say "He's the leader. He's so amazing" I don't buy it. He's great, yeah, but so are a lot of other players in the NBA.
Take Brady away and the Pats would still win.. psh. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
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Post by GEO on May 15, 2007 11:17:10 GMT -5
I have two points to bring up.
The Cavs are up 3-1 in their current series. In the wins, Lebron has over seven rebounds, averaging 29 points, etc.
In the loss, he scored under 20, and took down around 6 rebounds. That should be a pretty good indication.
Business
You mention the fact he's "glamourous" or whatever, and you're right. But sports has turned into a business. Lebron sells tickets. If you take Tom Brady away from the Pats, they'll still fill their stadium up every game. That's the way football is. But if Lebron were taken away from Cleveland, I doubt you'd see the stadium half full.
Not to mention, Lebron brings sponsors from all over and has helped Cleveland make a boatload of money. So in this case, he is most valuable
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Post by blindlywewander on May 15, 2007 12:19:47 GMT -5
If you want to look at guys carrying their teams, then the MVP has already be named. Tons of wins during the regular season and Dirk is on fire. In the postseason though, he struggles and the team loses to a 'Cinderella' Warriors team. Maybe he should be MVP? They got pretty much dominated when he was out. Maybe that's a good indication? No. Kobe does the same thing. So do a lot of guys. The suns really struggle without Nash. The Wizards without Arenas? Owned by the Lebrons. Don't say he is the team because on any successful team there are leaders and there are assist men. On successful every team, one guy consistently stands out (except for maybe Detroit, but that's because they're all good).
Now, for the money thing. Most valuable player may encompass that as well, but Lebron has been in Cleveland for a couple years now, and still no championship. No parades. No nothing. Endorsements, sure. But that's not enough. Kobe brings in more than him to a struggling Lakers team. That means nothing. Tom Brady has brought 3 Super Bowls to the Patriots. 3. That means 3 years of non-stop TV coverage by tons of television stations. That means advertisements, interviews, commercials, and the like. 3 times. I'm 100% sure Tom Brady has brought the Pats more money than Lebron has the Cavs. Without Brady, the Pats would have a lot less money ha.
Sports is a business, but you don't have to look at it that way. It's not a business for fans. It's entertainment. No fan looks at Calvin Johnson as a way Detroit can get more money. They think of him as a way they can win some games. Come on now GEO.
And, oh yeah, Tom Brady sells tickets. Who else to Patriot fans go to see? Corey Dillion? Or maybe Reshe Caldwell? Again. No. It's Tom Brady. He's a leader and a field general. That's why they buy tickets. Plus, even if he and Lebron both left their respective teams, football stadiums hold many more people so even if a smaller percentage of people were at Pats games, there'd probably still be more ticket sales.
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Post by GEO on May 15, 2007 12:29:01 GMT -5
The Patriots aren't even the most popular ticket, that belongs to Boston.
Your argument about basketball is slightly off.
Kobe Bryant...good name. But he's done absolutely nothing since Shaq has left. So he's out. Steve Nash....another good name. Currently in the same round Lebron is in. But he has a lot more talent around him. They may struggle, but they would still keep it close.
Everytime I switch on ESPN, I hear "the Cavs go as Lebron goes." That's an indication of something.
In football, why Tom Brady? How about Peyton Manning? Sure, he has two less Super Bowls, but many will argue that he is the better quarterback then Brady. How about LT? Lose him, the Chargers won't do anything. Carson Palmer not in Cincy? Kaput.
Fact is, we can both argue about other people in basketball and football. But in basketball ONE player can actually win a game. In football, it's more about the team as a whole.
Miami Heat last year. Dwayne Wade was the reason they won. Not Shaq, not Mourning. Wade. He carried that team on his back.
Spurs. Always had Duncan to give them their extra boost.
Bulls. Jordon....'nuff said.
In Lebron's years in Cleveland, the team has always gotten better and is on the verge of making the Conference Finals. In those years, there have been ZERO drastic improvements to the team.
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Post by blindlywewander on May 15, 2007 15:00:59 GMT -5
Kobe Bryant is the Lakers. He's "carried the team" to the playoffs without Shaq. He scored 81 frickin points. If that's nothing to you, then you should go sit in a closet and rethink life.
Steve Nash is the team. Did you not see them beat the Spurs last night? All Nash. Did you see when they were about to beat them in game 1 then he went out? Loss. Why isn't he the MVP? He has talent, but none up to his level. His team has average players that he makes good. It's the same way with Lebron.
Now, it is true that Lebron carries the Cavs. He's their main scorer. They make a majority of their plays up just for him. What does that indicate? Nothing. He's a star. He's the leader. MVP in all of sports? Not even close.
"In football, why Tom Brady? How about Peyton Manning? Sure, he has two less Super Bowls, but many will argue that he is the better quarterback then Brady." Yeah, but they'd lose that argument every time. Brady has very little talent around him and wins regardless. Manning has had talent for years and just now won (or his team did rather. He didn't do much). "How about LT? Lose him, the Chargers won't do anything." I agree. But that's not my point. Success is the key. Brady has won. LT has not. Most Valuable means indispensible. LT could be replaced. I hate to say it, but the chargers could fill their roster with another good back. Brady? No. No one can replace Brady and fill those cleets.
"Carson Palmer not in Cincy? Kaput." I'm not sure. Cincy has a lot of talent. Plus, they were 8-8 when he came in. Kitna was developing as an actual leader until pretty boy pushed him out of the way.
"Fact is, we can both argue about other people in basketball and football. But in basketball ONE player can actually win a game. In football, it's more about the team as a whole." So football is a team sport and basketball is not? Hmm. That's a terrible argument and an entirely different debate. Lebron can't win on his own. If it was just him out there, the team would have 25 points at the end. If you're arguing for a guy carrying his team, it's all Kobe. He has absolutely no one. Young, unexperienced kids out there. Lebron has veterans and guys who know the game. He, believe it or not, actually learns from his teamates. For Kobe, he's the one doing the teaching.
"Miami Heat last year. Dwayne Wade was the reason they won. Not Shaq, not Mourning. Wade. He carried that team on his back." This argument is invalid also. A lot of players came into play at the end. Yeah, Wade made a lot of shots and did all he could, but a lot of guys deserve credit. I can't even believe you're saying it's all Wade. Posey, Mourning and even Gary Payton made clutch shots toward the end of several games. Games were close because of Wade, but games were won because basketball is a TEAM game. That is a terrible argument. There are individual stars, but the team is important.
"Spurs. Always had Duncan to give them their extra boost. Bulls. Jordon....'nuff said. In Lebron's years in Cleveland, the team has always gotten better and is on the verge of making the Conference Finals. In those years, there have been ZERO drastic improvements to the team." True. Very true. But what success has he had? Regular season wins? Woot. So have the Mavs. Look at them. A few playoff wins against bad teams? Hurray. Pat him on the shoulder. Tom Brady won 3 Super Bowls, dangit. How can you even say he's not the most valuable? No one else has dominated a league like him. Peyton wins games, but not when they matter. Lebron has won regular season, but is yet to prove himself. Brady is the Patriots. They've lost tons of players, but still, Brady wins.
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Post by Nyi28nhl on May 15, 2007 15:12:32 GMT -5
He scored 81 frickin points. If that's nothing to you, then you should go sit in a closet and rethink life. My vote for comment of the year Just to pop in and say something. GEO, what has LeBron done that Kobe hasn't without Shaq?
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Post by GEO on May 17, 2007 16:26:43 GMT -5
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Post by GEO on May 17, 2007 16:28:02 GMT -5
Kobe isn't most valuable because he put his own intentions over the team and ran Shaq out of town. I have no doubt the Lakers might have added another title to their history had Shaq stayed. That's the basic response. Press 2 for the advanced copy.
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