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Post by GEO on Jan 29, 2007 20:48:53 GMT -5
We're going to jump to February 5th for this debate. The Chicago Bears have just beaten Peyton Manning and the Colts to win the Super Bowl. Manning didn't play terribly, but he didn't have a great game either.
The basis for this debate is greatness. If Peyton Manning never wins a Super Bowl, is he still considered a great QB? For those of you who want to make the argument that Dan Marino never won a Super Bowl, Marino also played most of his career without a running back and without most of the pure talent Peyton Manning has on his team.
Is Manning a failure if he fails to win with Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne, two of the best in the game? It already looks bad that he couldn't win with James, but if he never wins, how can you call his career a success?
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Post by Nyi28nhl on Jan 29, 2007 21:52:45 GMT -5
Marino also had a better defense, and coach (Don Shula). Peyton is the best QB to ever set foot on the gridiron. If you don't feel so right now, you will by the end of his career.
Of the Top Five Single Season Completions Leaders, Peyton made the list twice (2002, 2003)
He has 275 career TDs, and barring injury next year he will pass the greats John Elway, Johnny Unitas, and Warren Moon in that category.
By the end of next year, he will also pass Joe Montana and Dan Fouts in career completions
His Passer Rating is unbelievable. His INT count per season has gone down as he's gotten older. Take out his rookie season, and his career Passing % is around 66%.
Sure, he has a reputation for stinking it up in the postseason, but he hasn't played tremendously bad. In his postseason career (12 games) he has more TDs than INTs, and over 3,000 yards passing. He's also 6-6 in those games. Nothing special, just mediocre.... but not as bad as some make it out to be.
Had Elway retired after the 1996 season, would he be a failure? Warren Moon? Johnny Unitas? Jim Kelly? Frank Tarkenton?
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Post by blindlywewander on Jan 30, 2007 14:05:22 GMT -5
I agree, but disagree at the same time. While his statistics are good and all, without the ability to win a Super Bowl and give your team a memory they'll never forget, that changes things. He's one of the most feared qb's in the league, but I won't say he's the best ever. He's got grade A talent at every postition and a coach who plans on blowing out their opponents week in and week out. So yeah, he's succeeded thus far. But his backup wins games. You know who his back up is? Jim Sorgi. His passer rating is close to 100. Why? The offensive talent. Peyton is great and far better than Sorgi, but I think he's got to win a Super Bowl to actually become legendary. There's something about a ring. Something about saying, "Yeah back in 07 when Peyton lead his team to the title..." that's when he became a star. Right now, he's not. Tom Brady, in my opinion, is better than him. While he might not have the TD's or completions, he's got three rings with three very different rosters each time. Plus, he wins without talent. Switch Peyton and Brady. See how that works out. The debate would be "Will Peyton ever succeed again? And will Tom ever lose again?"
Marino is better than Peyton as of right now. If he wins next week, we'll see. With a Super Bowl on his resume, if/when he passes Marino in many of the statistical categories, it'll mean much much more.
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pcsf
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Post by pcsf on Jan 31, 2007 0:27:09 GMT -5
I think he will have a HOF Carrer and be recongized as one of the Best Ever in the NFL. Alltouch i'm of those people who think Peyton sucks in the Playoffs, U Can't aruge that he is and forever will be the Best Regular Season Qb in the History in the NFL. The Stats speek for themselves (all time passing TD leader, all time passing yards leader). Yes i think Marino was one of the Best QB ever to paly the Game but Peyton was took his spot when he beat Marino record
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Post by Nyi28nhl on Jan 31, 2007 1:08:57 GMT -5
I agree, but disagree at the same time. While his statistics are good and all, without the ability to win a Super Bowl and give your team a memory they'll never forget, that changes things. He's one of the most feared qb's in the league, but I won't say he's the best ever. He's got grade A talent at every postition and a coach who plans on blowing out their opponents week in and week out. So yeah, he's succeeded thus far. But his backup wins games. You know who his back up is? Jim Sorgi. His passer rating is close to 100. Why? The offensive talent. Peyton is great and far better than Sorgi, but I think he's got to win a Super Bowl to actually become legendary. There's something about a ring. Something about saying, "Yeah back in 07 when Peyton lead his team to the title..." that's when he became a star. Right now, he's not. Tom Brady, in my opinion, is better than him. While he might not have the TD's or completions, he's got three rings with three very different rosters each time. Plus, he wins without talent. Switch Peyton and Brady. See how that works out. The debate would be "Will Peyton ever succeed again? And will Tom ever lose again?" Marino is better than Peyton as of right now. If he wins next week, we'll see. With a Super Bowl on his resume, if/when he passes Marino in many of the statistical categories, it'll mean much much more. I also consider Sorgi one of the better backups, but that's neither here nor there. Keep in mind that while he has the grade A talent on offense, he's also led the league in total offense year in and year out. No one has ever understood a gameplan like him. Have you ever seen a QB smart enough and knowledgeable enough to call multiple audibles on every down? Brady has won championships, but Brady also won them with a much, much better defense - and possibly the biggest mastermind of a coach in NFL history. Peyton's offense has always pulled their end of the deal, it's usually the defense and the coaching on why they haven't made it to the big show.
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Post by blindlywewander on Jan 31, 2007 13:19:54 GMT -5
I must disagree. If anyone's to blame for their lack of production in the playoffs, it's Peyton. He blows games. Everyone said he choked in the playoffs. They didn't pull that from nowhere. He earned that stigma. While it's a team effort, Peyton has thrown away their last few playoff appearances (excluding this year). Also, it's true he plays the game differently than anyone else. But saying he's the best simply because he audibles so many times is neither a valid nor sound argument. Most, if not all QBs in the league go into the huddle with multiple plays. Any veteran QB can audible to a number of different plays. Everyone does it. The only reason Peyton gets more credit for it is because he does it so often. Most QBs call the play designed or check down to a safer play. Peyton audibles once, reads the defense, then audibles a couple more times. While that can be confusing, that's the only purpose it really serves. He's one of the best at reading defenses and changing plays accordingly, but Tom Brady can do that. McNabb does it. Heck, Mark Brunell did it when he played. Everyone audibles. Peyton just does it so much in attempt to confuse the defense.
If stats are all that define a player, then Jon Kitna should be up there with the greats. Oh, he's not? Why is that? Because statistics are not the sole reason a player is deemed great. Wins are much more important. If Peyton can't get this Super Bowl win, he'll still be remembered as a great player. But legendary? I'm not so sure. In my opinion, Marino isn't up their either. A Super Bowl defines a players career. Stats are nice and will get you on ESPN, but until you win that trophy, you're still 'almost there.' Peyton will always be, "Arguably one of the best." If he wins this one, that will change. But as of right now, he is and will remain 'forever questioned.'
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Post by Nyi28nhl on Jan 31, 2007 18:20:35 GMT -5
I'm on the run, so I don't have time for a full response right now, but quickly..
Kitna's career stats are nowhere near those of Manning in any category... and Kitna has played a few more years.
I'm sure Peyton's career win/loss record is impressive.
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Post by BlackOps on Jan 31, 2007 18:55:34 GMT -5
Peyton Manning in the end will be considered the greatest quarterback of all time whether or not he wins a super bowl. Actually, he can't win a super bowl. There are things called "team sports". In football, teams consist of 22 starters, backups, special team players, and coaches. The coaches make the personnel decisions and play calls (well, in Manning's case, no. But that should only make him better). Backups provide backup (see: when Bob Sanders was out). Special teams players do a lot with regard to field position and other things (see: Mike Vanderjagt's kick in last year's AFC title game and Vinatieri's two kicks to make the Pats champions). There's a lot that goes into winning a championship, not just "Peyton Manning".
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Post by blindlywewander on Feb 1, 2007 14:11:16 GMT -5
BO: I don't know what your argument is? Saying teams win championships? No crap. But when QB's throw games away, they get the blame and they deserve the blame. Of course you can say 'the playcalling was terrible' or 'the defense was bad' but when a QB has a chance to win it and throws a pick, much like many of Peyton's past playoff experiences, then the loss is on his shoulders. He knows it. Everyone knows it. It may not have been his fault, but in the eyes of the media and fans, it is.
Nyi: I was talking about last season. Kitna had great stats last year. He won 3 games but still had amazing numbers. That wasn't my point though. Statistics aren't quite as important. Wins are. While Peyton may have a good regular season winning percentage, his post-season percentage is sub-par (that's being nice).
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Post by BlackOps on Feb 1, 2007 16:59:09 GMT -5
So do you think Doug Williams is a better quarterback than Peyton Manning?
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Post by blindlywewander on Feb 1, 2007 22:36:53 GMT -5
Did you even read my argument? I'm talking about QB's deciding games when it comes down to it. Doug Williams may not have had the game on the line and if he did, he obviously came through. Peyton, on the other hand, has thrown the past three playoff games away (excluding this year). You can argue it all you want, but had Peyton not made so many mistakes in those games, we wouldn't be talking about this. Peyton is great. One of the best ever. But to be THE best ever, which you claim he is or will be, he has to win a title. It's that simple. There are better than Peyton right now because they have titles. When he wins one, his resumee will go way up and best ever may be an acceptable title. But not yet.
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Post by BlackOps on Feb 2, 2007 18:39:24 GMT -5
Who do you think is the greatest quarterback of all time?
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Post by blindlywewander on Feb 2, 2007 22:44:15 GMT -5
1. This is irrelevant to the topic of this post. 2. Mark Brunell, who do ya think?
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Post by GEO on Feb 3, 2007 16:35:19 GMT -5
If BlackOps wants to argue stats, then after next season, Brett Favre will be the greatest QB of all time. Yet, most people won't even have him in their Top 5.
Can you think of a time, before this years' game, where Peyton made a comeback or even lead the Colts to a convincing victory in a big situation? I can't. Because he hasn't.
Elway had the drive. Brady has had his Super Bowl winning drives. Montana had "the catch." Favre, most recently, had that memorable Monday Night performance.
Manning might be the "Greatest Regular Season QB." But the real NFL season starts when there are only 12 teams left.
So he's a great football mind. Have you ever seen a player with the nerve of Brady? The poise of Elway?
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Post by blindlywewander on Feb 3, 2007 21:35:33 GMT -5
Amen and amen. As I pointed out earlier and GEO emphasized, the playoffs are the most important part of a players career. It doesn't matter if he throws 60 TDs and 10000 yards (well maybe then, but I'm just making a point), if he throws three picks and loses in his first playoff game, he's got nothing. All those regular season stats with nothing to show for it except a column on the stat sheet. Peyton is great. He's an amazing QB who any team would kill for.. until the playoffs that is. He hasn't even had a good run this year in the playoffs. This may be the last/one of the last posts on this debate because after the superbowl my argument may change. This debate was started before it and therefore should end before it. But, if he wins, he will be one of the greatest ever. But never will he be the best ever. If he wins back to back then wins again, then maybe. Until then, Tom Brady, Elway and the rest of upper echelon players can rest easy..
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